Lay Off the C40's

by hootie4170, Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:10:31 AM EST

I have been an Obama supporter from the beginning of the primaries.  I have donated, phone banked and canvassed in 3 states for him.  My support comes from a strong desire to see this country change it's image in the world, change the way we treat the poor, minorities, women, the LGBT community, each other and to secure a better future for my two sons.  I have spent money I really don't have, I have travelled to states with time I could have been working...and I do this because I truly believe our country is way off the track and I fear for our children's future.

Having said that, I was a violent Hillary Clinton opposer.  I would demean, degrade and disrespect the woman...I had convinced myself she was selfish, a dirty campaigner and a liar.  I believed she thought she was "entitled" to the nomination because she was a Clinton.

However, I finally saw the light.  I cannot pinpoint an exact time when this happened...it could have been when she kept on fighting when everyone said she was finished, it could have been when she exhibited what a policy wonk she is, it could have been seeing my sister getting involved in politics for the first time because of Hillary, it could have been the meaningful discussions I have had with Clinton supporters on mydd...but one thing is clear to me, Hillary wanted to make America better and had the plans to do so.  I would have been disappointed if Obama would have lost the primary but I would have been more than happy to work my tail off for HRC...but it would have taken time.

I don't know how long it would have taken me to get over my grieving period about Obama.  What I do know is at this very moment I have the utmost respect for the Clintonistas for Obama (C40) crew.  It had to be heart-breaking to see their very capable candidate lose such a historical, hard fought and emotional primary contest.  I think of all the time, energy and emotion I put into Barack and how devastated I would have been if he were to lose...but it didn't happen...it is much, much easier to be a gracious winner than be gracious loser.  I respect and admire the C40's for that...I don't know if I could have done the same.

The C40's are caught in an awkward position...a Catch 22 or No-Win if you will...and I am tired of seeing them being portrayed as "Betrayers" or "Concern Trolls".  I do not envy them.  

First off the C40's have all stated they will vote and work to get Obama elected.  Second, they have written pro-Obama diaries, anti-McCain diaries and published them here, Dkos and their own website (which I encourage people to visit).   But folks remember, Obama was not their first choice (maybe not their second, third or fourth) so of course they are going to have differences about where Obama stands on certain issues or how he is running his campaign...They are allowed to express concern or frustration and deserve respectful feedback from the people in this community.

The C40's have branched out on their own, separating from some very die-hard Clinton supporters who will not support Senator Obama under any circumstances.  These were people with whom they developed strong and meaningful relationships with...It can not be easy.  Many PUMA's have made it their mission to seek out C40's and harass their former comrades buy calling them "sell-outs", "traitors", "unloyal", etc.  The C40's have made a noble decision to support Obama because they see what turmoil the USA is in and recognize we cannot afford four more years of Dubya or the Republican Party, and because they are Democrats.

C40's must be given the respect they have rightfully earned, and all disrespectful comments towards them must be called-out in a forceful manner from members of the mydd community.  There will be no tolerance for over-zealous Obama supporters or members of PUMA.

sricki, atdnext, canadian gal, psychodrew, zcflint05 and all the other C40's I want you to know that your efforts will not go unrecognized anymore.  There will be much more empathy, respect and good-will in regards to your comments and thoughts.  My two boys and I would like to thank you in your efforts for getting a Democrat into the White House and ensuring a better future for us.




Tags: C4O, Obama, Clinton, PUMA (all tags)

Display:
Permalink :: 194 Comments :: Post a Comment


Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 15)

Thanks for the diary. As a Hillary supporter who will do whatever it takes to get Barack Obama elected, I appreciate finding so many mature and respectful Obama supporter. Thanks for being a good winner.


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:41:48 AM EST

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 3)

Thank you Hollede for your input to this community.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:09:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 1)

you are very welcome.


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 4)

This diary really is gratifying.  We C4Os have been buzzing about it.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:29:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (none / 0)

Well, I guess Hollede has it right in part. I'm a Hillary supporter who would do whatever it takes to get democrats elected into Congress this year--as for Obama, my enjoyment in listening to him gives me almost comparable to Bush in the angst it causes me on an impulse level.

I know many Obama supporters will dislike me coming out to say this on a site where they've basically taken over.

However, I guess I can remain silent until the convention and afterwards only speak again on election day with my vote. Only time will tell if Hillary supporters will vote for Obama considering the deep fissures of division in the democratic party are quite apparent.


by Check077 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 11:29:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 1)

I agree...the only problem is, outside the names you specifically mentioned, and maybe a few others, it's hard to know who may be a C4O with genuine concerns, and who's just being a disruptive pain. It's like Invasion of the Bodysnatchers, man! They're all around us!


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:50:23 AM EST

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 4)

I know. But some have been part of this community for along time and engage in meaningful discussions.  These are the ones I speak of and for.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 7)

Well, ask yourself this:

Do you stand to lose more by being polite to a troll?

Or by being rude to a genuine C40?

Being polite to a troll (or just keeping silent if you can't manage to be civil) has no drawbacks. In fact, since trolls thrive on attention, I daresay the worst thing you could possibly do to someone you suspect is trolling is just to not reply.

On the other hand, being polite and friendly to C4Os has definite benefits.

My suggestion would be to err on the side of the greater potential good. But maybe that's just me.


by SuGeAtARC on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:36:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 2)

OMG!!! holy smolies!!! Jimminy Crickets!!! wowie zowie!!! This so well stated that I want it posted at the top of everything at mydd. Thank you for stating this simply and elegantly.


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:13:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 1)

If you are wondering what to when you disagree with someone, just read this comment by SuGeAtARC again please, (and again, and again, and again...)


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:18:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 1)

Wow, thanks! *blush* Glad you liked it.

I know it's tough when emotions are running high, but it just seems like the obvious way to move on, if I can borrow that phrase. I mean, the MSM obviously wants to keep the "fight" alive, so we have to stand against that, for one thing.

And I do think there are a least a few political operatives among us whose job is just to get everyone as riled up as possible so we can't work together.  It bugs me a lot when it looks like it's working, too :(  


by SuGeAtARC on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:21:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 1)

Exactly. I get bummed on occasion, because I see all of these sincere and caring Democrats (on either side) who are being played by either republican trolls, the media, or just by argumentative cantankerous souls who have a lot of time on their hands. I think the advice you gave is applicable to anyone who gives a shit about our country and our party.


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 9)

I agree with your entire post except that it's pretty obvious that sricki is a concern troll.  I mean she totally doesn't think that Obama walks on water, and I'm fairly certain that I saw her posting something about Obama not being the son of God.  I mean WTF?!

Seriously though, it was pretty nasty/depressing seeing people calling out people like sricki and canadian gal as "trolls", considering how much they contribute to this site and how much they've openly supported the Democratic nominee.

I hate to use your diary as a place to vent, but I think that the main reason we are seeing people calling out "trolls" left and right is because of the rampant abuse by actual "trolls" that went unmoderated for so long.  There were so many people here who only posted to cause arguments, tear down the nominee, and sow division that some people started to see everyone that questioned Obama on a political position as having ulterior motives.

Anyway, good diary and thanks for standing up for the awesome people that hang around this site.  This place would be better off if we had more people like the Clintonistas for Obama posting here.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:56:05 AM EST

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 5)

Seriously though, it was pretty nasty/depressing seeing people calling out people like sricki and canadian gal as "trolls", considering how much they contribute to this site and how much they've openly supported the Democratic nominee.

Oh yeah? Well I've never once heard Canadian Gal say she's going to vote for Obama. Why, I'll bet she's not even a registered Democrat! There can be no other explanation for this other than her being a troll!


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:08:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The operative word is: CANADIAN! It's illegal for (2.00 / 3)

Canadians to vote in US elections unless she possesses dual citizenship!


by suzieg on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:56:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

tone deaf (2.00 / 3)


by JJE on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:53:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tone deaf (2.00 / 1)

Suzie shows exactly why the no25centers are so shrill and unforgiving. They don't do nuance. They don't do subtle. They don't do humor. They don't do any of those things because they don't understand them. That's why they don't understand Obama.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:18:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tone deaf (2.00 / 2)

I don't know anything about suzie, but I do find this to be a generally humorless site. Maybe it's because of all the bad blood that existed and still continues to exist, but sadly, you often have to make jokes really obvious to account for the frayed nerves.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:59:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: tone deaf (2.00 / 1)

I haven't been here long, but from what I've seen people say some stuff that I go "Oh, you must be joking," then I find out they're serious and I want to back away slowly without making eye contact.

So yeah, if you're genuinely being humorous, be sure to label it, because some of the stuff that screams "satire" to me...is 100% real. It's been quite a shock (being new to the blogosphere entirely.) I no longer assume I have a clue what the intent of any poster is unless they make it crystal clear.


by SuGeAtARC on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:39:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for a relevant .... (2.00 / 7)

diary.

Folks around here are still trying their best to paint everyone who was a supporter of Hillary as some kind of threat to democracy.  Folks just can't wrap their little heads around the fact that there were other folks who saw her as the best choice (49+% of those voting in the Democratic primaries, not a small number folks), and can't understand that support for one candidate over the other didn't mean actual 'opposition' to the final winner.  It was a 'preference'.

I'm glad to see this in your diary, it must have been hard to say:

"Having said that, I was a violent Hillary Clinton opposer.  I would demean, degrade and disrespect the woman...I had convinced myself she was selfish, a dirty campaigner and a liar.  I believed she thought she was "entitled" to the nomination because she was a Clinton.

However, I finally saw the light.  I cannot pinpoint an exact time when this happened..."

Thanks for that, it does help some of us to see folks finally acknowledge this, and it helps us to move on.

Perhaps I can help you pinpoint an 'exact time' for you ...... the Saturday when she finally gave her concession speech?  Some Obama supporters  were  free of their Hillary hate then, others still carry it today.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:53:18 AM EST

Why HATE her? (2.00 / 1)

she did some things that were downright skullduggery. I don't like that she did those things.

She's still a damn fine Senator.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:13:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why HATE her? (2.00 / 7)

That's hogwash.  NEITHER candidate did anything that could be construed as 'skullduggery'.

You, like far too many others, have bought the crap being slung by the folks who do, yes, HATE her.

Yes, she's a damn fine senator, and if the Obama phenomenon had not taken root, she would be the next damn fine POTUS.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:36:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you haven't been watching the shadows (none / 0)

nor do you see the waiting eyes that lurk within...

I can agree with your last statement, while reviling you for falling victim to your own self-righteousness.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 02:53:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for a relevant .... (2.00 / 4)

Do you have to be so condescending with your remarks?  "wrap their Little Heads?"

I appreciate your comments but jeebus you appear to be taking advantage of this conciliatory diary by getting in as many potshots as you can...yeah I get it, she didn't win like she was supposed to due to all these stinking idiot kids.  

But hey, instead of taking a dump on the olive branch how about just toning it down a bit, huh?
Since you are putting on airs of superiority, why don't you be graceful and act like it


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:34:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can't help but smile a little... (2.00 / 1)

When I hear the chorus of people ranting about being duped by "those crazy kids" (aka the youth vote).  It's so reminiscent of the villains in scooby doo cartoons.  

Not to mention the fact that it's a pretty warped perspective to have taken away from the primaries.  After all the youth vote made up less (sometimes far less) than 18% of the total vote.  It would actually be more true to say that Hillary did so well because of the elderly vote (average 30%).  She and Obama were about even for 30-59 vote.


by Tenafly Viper on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:40:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for a relevant .... (2.00 / 3)

Thanks for the comment on the diary.  However concerning this:

Perhaps I can help you pinpoint an 'exact time' for you ...... the Saturday when she finally gave her concession speech?

It was before that.  Check out my diaries about her, it was before the primary was over, a couple months before.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:18:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for a relevant .... (2.00 / 1)

Fair enough.

I suppose all that week of 'how dare she not concede during her remarks after her last campaign victory, how dare she 'diss' Obama in that way' that makes it appear that some folks wouldn't even admit she was human until after her Saturday concession speech.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for a relevant .... (2.00 / 1)

Fair point...but I wasn't one of them.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:44:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for a relevant .... (2.00 / 3)

Great post.

C4O in the hizz house!

FUCK PUMA!


No way. No how. No McCain!
by spacemanspiff on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for a relevant .... (none / 0)

Spaceman, have you seen this?

http://www.mydd.com/user/lara%20in%20ita ly/ratings

Yet another sockpuppet whose sole purpose is to TR every single post of yours.  That is the second one I've seen do that - the other I can't remember but it was one of the people who rec'd roxyfoxy's "answer troll" diary if that helps.

I believe there are more, but don't hold me to that.  In fact, you probably know better than I do.


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 11:02:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 4)

Hi Hootie I always enjoy your diaries. I too came to admire Senator Clinton as she fought. Rec as always. I will think of you when Obama is elected President.


by Politicalslave on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:08:44 AM EST

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 2)

Thank you Politicalslave...your comment means alot.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 3)

Sorry that was suppossed to say as Senator Clinton fought on.


by Politicalslave on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:10:20 AM EST

Good post (1.38 / 13)

C40's  are trying to overlook the relative inexperience of Obama supporters, but it's harder to do with each passing week.

Obama's most ardent supporters need to  ask themselves if they really think the hubris and hostility will get Obama elected.  

We're Democrats first and foremost, which means we learn to get along with each other and work towards a common goal.  Just because a fellow Dem isn't wild about Obama, but is still willing to work to get him elected isn't a betrayal.

Next time around, Obama supporters will look back and have a better understanding. Most are very new to the game. I suspect many will regret their words and actions and know a lot more about campaigns.  

Fellow Dems are willing to forgive and forget, but we have to see some sign of progress.  The hate and hostility is getting tiresome and boring. Your candidate won't win with it.


by Betsy McCall on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:04:09 AM EST

I may be inexperienced... (2.00 / 2)

but that doesn't mean that I'm not woodswise.

I know that there's not much difference between Obama and Hillary -- and that Hillary's biggest failing is her mismanagement.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:15:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good post (2.00 / 7)

Obama won 50+% of the votes in the primary.  Most of these votes were not from "inexperienced" Democrats.  Please stop trying to be offensive.

As for the youth movement behind Obama, good for them.  Your vote does not count more and is not more meaningful because you are older.  I am glad that they are being brought into the fold and will help the Democratic party stay strong for decades to come.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:24:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

actually he didn't (2.00 / 2)

anyway you cut it, Barack Obama, whether he wins or loses the popular vote, depending on the scenario, as Hillary Clinton, he did not get over 50% of the popular vote in the primary. I'll remind you Clinton haters of this because after all, you always remind Clinton supporters about how Bill didn't get over 50% in his elections. (but of course Bill had to also compete with pro-choice pro-gay anti-NAFTA Perot who took equally in both 1992 and 1996.)


by Lakrosse on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:03:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: actually he didn't (2.00 / 7)

Please search my entire posting history and try to find a negative comment about Hillary or Bill Clinton.  You may find one, I remember saying that the gas tax holiday was pandering.

Now that we have confirmed I am not a "Clinton Hater" maybe you care to discuss the content of my comment.  

Sorry for overstating his support.  We will now say 49%+.  Given that, my comment should read:

Obama won 49+% of the votes in the primary.  Most of these votes were not from "inexperienced" Democrats.  Please stop trying to be offensive.

As for the youth movement behind Obama, good for them.  Your vote does not count more and is not more meaningful because you are older.  I am glad that they are being brought into the fold and will help the Democratic party stay strong for decades to come.

Discuss.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: actually he didn't (2.00 / 1)

when I meant "you" Clinton haters, the "you" wasn't directed at you, CAchemist, but to many on this site who continue to bash them with the GOP meme I wrote above.


by Lakrosse on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:20:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: actually he didn't (2.00 / 1)

I've actually never once seen anyone on this site mention that Bill Clinton got less than 50% of the vote.  If you can find an occurance of that I'd be interested in reading it.

I don't mean to be insulting, but are you DiamondJay?


by MeganLocke on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: actually he didn't (none / 0)

Rumsfeld and Cheney have all the "experience" you could want. These  voters will gain experience and vote for President Obama again in 4 years


by Politicalslave on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:34:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

stop trying to press your worn out memes (2.00 / 3)

There is no popular vote in the primary.  Just because you can't count people from caucus states doesn't mean they don't have a say in the election.

No need to respond, except rhetorically for your own vanity; I don't intend to engage you further.  You've already disrupted this comment thread enough with your rude aside.  Your strawman arguement was intended for no purpose other than to sow division.


by Tenafly Viper on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good post (none / 0)

We Obama supporters who aren't young find the condecention and assumption that we are a bit offensive.


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:22:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good post (2.00 / 1)

Again, 'relative inexperience' aptly describes those who are of ANY age who were drawn into political action by Obama, folks who self described as 'new' to politics by registering to vote.

If there's evidence that Obama didn't draw the 'newly registered', please provide it, and then I'll agree with your assumption.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good post (2.00 / 1)

He did, but he also drew those who'd experienced the dramas of a Clinton administration, due to our experience.

He also drew those of us who'd experienced the decline of civil and intelligent discourse going back at least to Lee Atwater and followed through by Dick Morris and Karl Rove..  Because he was at least attempting to higher and more mature standards.


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good post (none / 0)

With all due respect emsprater, HRC drew many "inexperienced" political persons into her campaign as well.  Look at the amount of new women voters that turned out...We look at this as a bad thing (inexperience) but isn't that what the Democratic Party has been trying to do for years, increase turnout and excitement?


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:48:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good post (none / 0)

I would agree with that point, and I would call those folks 'relatively inexperienced' as well.  Some folks, however, just want to call them 'old people'.

As I've said, it's not an age thing.  I do believe,and correct me if I am incorrect, but the 'hype' was that the majority of the new to politics folks were smitten by Obama.   That's not a bad thing, it's just a statement of what I feel the facts bear out.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:55:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good post (none / 0)

Fair enough, although I must say many of these "relatively inexperienced" folks have educated themselves on the issues and the candidates more so than many "experienced" voters.

Example, my mother and father up until 2004 voted Republican for the last 35 years, just because it was handed down to them by their parents.  They did not bother to get "involved" in the campaigns to see what each party stood for and which one identified more with their needs.  After a crash course from me that all changed in 2004.  My sister on the other hand voted for the first time this year thanks to HRC.  She educated herself on the issues and the candidates and formulated a well-thought out opinion.

What I'm saying is just because my parents voted for the last 35 years it did not make them anymore experienced than my sister who voted for the first time this year.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:25:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good post (none / 0)

I guess we'll just have to leave it like this.

It's a dead end to try to discuss who's supporters were 'old people' and who's were 'relatively inexperienced'.  

I still, however, think that one term is derrogatory and the other is descriptive.  I guess it depends on how many years a person has under their belt which term is most offensive.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 11:47:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good post (2.00 / 2)

These "OLD" comments are just troll talking points


by Politicalslave on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:11:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

party unity lessons from a PUMA....hmph... (2.00 / 2)

You're PUMA, right (or a sympathizer at any rate)? Well for a group of people who are so distrustful of the media, your sure buying into one of the biggest hyperboles of their coverage.

Your post is fundamentally flawed.  There may be an influx of first-time voters this year and a lot of people who have switched their party affiliation, but that doesn't mean that they are all young people.  There are plenty of older folks who were previously jaded about politics, that decided to sign up this primary season.

Based on exit polls, only 13% of the electorate (this primary season) is under 30.  You can compare that with approximately 29% of the electorate which is over 60.  This demographic being a big area of support for Hillary.  Which means Obama's largest demographic was the split with Hillary for the 30-59 vote.


by Tenafly Viper on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:36:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 1)

How magnanimous of you to grant respect to people who have chosen to agree with you.

Does anyone else find the victors favoring former opponents who can be relied on to police their own obscene? Am I misreading the tone of this diary?


by souvarine on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:47:38 AM EST

You, sir, are an ostrich (2.00 / 1)

when your handbasket reaches hell, will you be happy with a tan?


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:16:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 9)

I think you are misreading the tone of the diary.

Last week some of our best diarists were called trolls and attacked for pointing out some Obama platform flaws.  A large chunk of the community who know these diarists well came to their defense.  I think this is another example of that defense.

You may not like how it was said but I think it was done in good faith.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:29:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually, I find this .... (2.00 / 4)

diary a refreshing change I can 'believe in'.

Not many of the Obama 'from day one supporters' are being this gracious.  It's time they all realize, as this diarist did, that 'we' all have to get under the same boat if it is going to float.  It's going to take all of us.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:49:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 5)

They do not earn my respect by merely agreeing with me.  They have earned my respect by rejecting the idea of helping McCain win the White House and instead embraced the idea of electing a Democrat who will promote a better future for all Americans.  In doing so they have alienated themselves from other Clinton supporters with a different agenda.  It can not be easy.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:27:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

they have alienated themselves (none / 0)

Everyone needs to realize that a handful of bitter dead-enders and McTrolls are trying to perpetuate the divisions of the primary campaign.


by Beren on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:43:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: they have alienated themselves (none / 0)

Beren you are so right.


by Politicalslave on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:25:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Its also possible (2.00 / 1)

That some of the Obama "supporters" who consistently attack even C40's may in fact be the trolls.

Their talking points are very similar and always divisive.  Many appear to thrive on keeping divisions alive regardless of attempts to unite the party.  

It hasn't gone unnoticed.


by Betsy McCall on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 01:37:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its also possible (none / 0)

"That some of the Obama "supporters" who consistently attack even C40's may in fact be the trolls."

What I see in that regard is reactive on the part of supporters of the Democratic nominee to attacks on him. That's defensive rather than trollish.

But there is an occasional needless dig at former Clinton supporters who continue to fight a long lost battle for the nomination.


by Beren on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 02:38:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 1)

I'd be careful suggesting what different poster's agendas are. The practice of counting out these members of the community as the good ones and those as the bad ones is inherently divisive, engage people on what they have to say, not on what group they belong to.

For instance there are plenty of Republicans who have been drawn to Obama's campaign, it is worthwhile to engage people who oppose you.


by souvarine on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:13:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 1)

engage people on what they have to say, not on what group they belong to.

I do engage people on what they have to say.  When they say they will not vote for Obama no matter what then I say screw them.  Being a PUMA member is synonymous with not voting for Obama.  Any person whose agenda or words encourage or aid a John McCain presidency is fair game for a beat down.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:28:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks Hootie. (2.00 / 9)

It's been a difficult process overall, for I think all of us--but there's nothing more important in this election than getting a Democrat, Barack Obama elected President in November. I know it's what Hillary wants, and it's what's best for our country.

Thank you for this diary. It does mean alot and I have to say that overall, since the primary season's been over, the feeling of the Democratic Party coming back together has been great. We've had a few roadbumps but I think it's worth it. I'm excited for November.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:24:21 AM EST

Re: Thanks Hootie. (2.00 / 3)

zcflint05, you are the one who should be thanked.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:27:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Two things here.... (2.00 / 8)

1.) There are a hell of a lot of former Clinton supporters on this site that are now Obama supporters (or in various levels/stages of support for the Party's nominee).

I'm one of them. I made up my mind on June 4th. That's it for me. End of story. It's all about Obama now.

I'm not really a 'joiner.' It's just me. So, I really haven't spent any time over at C4O; although I certainly consider myself to be a good friend and supporter of many of them. I suspect there are many like me on this blog, too.

2.) Everyone's waaay too much into labels this cycle. With all of the problems facing our society right now--perhaps more than at any time in the past few generations--isn't it the "responsible thing" to get beyond this pettiness and focus upon the issues? And, shouldn't that be manifesting itself in our blogging, too?

So, could we stop it with this childishness and get on with the business at hand?

Enough of these call-outs. Enough of this obsession with PUMA's and C40's and Concern Trolls and Purity Trolls. What purpose does this serve? IMHO, not much at all.

A little less introspection and selfish blogging about petty bullshit; a little more focus on the matters at hand affecting our society, IMHO.

It's not about "me." (i.e.: "you.") It's about "us!"

Time to change the dialogue!


by bobswern on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:32:37 AM EST

Re: Two things here.... (2.00 / 4)

Well said.  

We should all try to publish diaries about issues such as your last week's voter suppression diary.  It was very good.  I was in college in 2000 in Ohio so I was there firsthand for some of the Ken Blackwell bullshit.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:42:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two things here.... (2.00 / 4)

It will be my last one bobswern.  I just wanted to make clear how much you guys/gals mean to this community and that I have your back...not that you need it.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:29:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two things here.... (2.00 / 3)

Do need it-- your having our back. I think CFO's will tend to be more critical of Obama--I know I will--he needs folks who hold his feet to the fire. We never drank the kool-aide, pardon this overworked metaphor, but you know what I mean. People just have to be willing to say wtf to him :)


by linfar on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:55:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Definitely agree with you! (2.00 / 2)

You're absolutely right, Linfar.

Hootie, we need everyone watching everyone else's backs this cycle, bigtime. It's appreciated...sincerely. Lot's of bullshit going on as the Rethugs prepare to open their brand of psych warfare and otherwise disgusting can of whoop-ass upon us.

I will totally hold Obama's feet to the fire. Don't exactly have a rep for not speaking up, then, do I? Neither do all of you other great folks and fellow/former/present Clinton supporters. If you were on the record and supporting Hillary, past/present/future this year, by definition you had to have GUMPTION. (I do love that old-fashioned word!)

Noone's vote should ever be taken for granted.

All of the above being said, speaking of "speaking out," I'm still reading (in some cases between the proverbial lines) quite a lot of Hillary hate over at the Big Orange, even now.

Kos posted a piece about Wolfson signing up with Faux News, and called him a whore. I ripped Markos a new one in the comments to his own blog, calling him a total hypocrite. (The guy's got a fellowship from a formerly DLC-centrist group, and he writes for Newsweek.) Indeed, for many, it's about either affecting change from the inside or criticizing it from the outside.

BLOG ON! And...peace!


by bobswern on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two things here.... (2.00 / 1)

bobswern, thank you for your sensible, reasonable, and rational comments. You are very appreciated.


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You're welcome...and same here! (2.00 / 1)

But, like most of us, I try to blog sensibly, reasonably, and rationally, most of the time. But, sometimes, the keyboard is quicker than the mind...LOL!


by bobswern on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 01:21:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're welcome...and same here! (2.00 / 2)

Heh, I know what you mean. I don't always practice what I preach. I let a few disturbed folks get under my skin as well. Hang in there, we'll figure this out.


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 02:01:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 8)

Shout out to Linfar, Canadian Gal, etc.

We're all in this together!


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:33:28 AM EST

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 5)

Wow. that feels so welcome. Can't say how much. His moves to the right are really rough...


by linfar on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:12:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 3)

Sorry for not mentioning you linfar.  You are definitely note worthy:)


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:29:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 2)

ah, noteworthy, eh?? lol I needed as good laugh...


by linfar on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you for the excellent diary.. (2.00 / 4)

Your diary made my day..

There will be no tolerance for over-zealous Obama supporters or members of PUMA.

Glad to be on the same side. I'm glad that you said the above.

We are working to elect Obama for the Presidential election but that doesn't mean we have to agree with all of his moves like FISA.

I say Go Obama..


by louisprandtl on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:09:48 PM EST

Re: Thank you for the excellent diary.. (2.00 / 4)

louis I forgot to mention you, but you deserve a shout out as well.  I'm with ya, let's get a Democrat in the White House and then start leaning on him about our progressive values.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:31:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hey thanks buddy...absolutely I'll carry the water (2.00 / 5)

for anybody with a Dem sign on it to get rid of the "**" (fill in any epithet) occupying the WH currently..
There is no doubt Obama is probably one of the most inspirational candidates to come our way for a long time. We have our own apprehensions about any new change, but I think he for the most of part of it will be great for our country and for the World. But yes, as liberal progressives, we will give him piece of our mind if we don't like what he is doing..And he knows that..
by louisprandtl on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks, Hootie (2.00 / 6)

I really needed to see this today.  


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:08:37 PM EST

Re: Thanks, Hootie (2.00 / 4)

psychodrew you are the one(s) that need to be thanked.  I appreciate all that you do for the Democratic Party and the mydd community.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:39:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you, Drew! (2.00 / 4)

The criticism that you occasionally include in your diaries is always constructive and thoughtful, and it establishes you as honest and passionate. Even on those very rare occasions when I disagree with you, the way you write lends credence and respectability to your positions and your support both for Hillary and Barack.


M. It's like W, but flipflopped.
by warmwaterpenguin on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:48:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks! (2.00 / 4)

This has not been easy, but I'm trying.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:53:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Very true. (none / 0)

I think Drew demonstrates genuine concern and sincerity in his occasional criticism. Point this out to the concern trolls, often.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:24:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 5)

Yeah, me too. appreciate this hootie--A Lot!!


by linfar on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:12:01 PM EST

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 5)

linfar, I need to apoligize to you.  I totally misread you and have now come to terms that you are one helluva person.  I'm sorry for all my past actions that may have offended you.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:40:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lay Off the C40's (2.00 / 4)

It's true, hootie, I used to cringe whenever I saw your handle. lol! Moving on. And it ain't ez so I do appreciate your handclap here.


by linfar on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

'Moving on!' (2.00 / 1)

That is one of the primary stock quotes around the house these days (the best line from "Night at the Museum" - Dick Van Dyke gives it the ultimate "already past there" intonation).

I've sullied these pages with enough of my life story, and there are reams more that I won't (yet ;-) bore you with.  But that line is what keeps Donna and I sane.  We've shed untold mountains of obligation in the past year, not all of it with the best possible outcome, but "moving on!" leaves the path forward a bright and sunny place.

Look back?!?  Screw it, the past is gone.  Crank up "Ramble On" and think about the future.

-moving on!

-chris


"Because after an eight-year hiatus it is vital to have a president who leads the country instead of lassoing, roping and branding it." Shaun Appleby
by chrisblask on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Linfar, you're an inspiration (2.00 / 3)

I mean precisely that. The way you've absorbed and funneled all of your passion for Hillary into her causes, including electing a democrat, is an example I will draw strength from every time I'm hit with a political disappointment. You really are a marvel and a credit to Hillary and democrats everywhere.


M. It's like W, but flipflopped.
by warmwaterpenguin on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:50:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

C40s are some of our best diarists. (2.00 / 4)

I find more I agree with and feel edified by in their diaries than 90% of what I see on MyDD. Thanks to all of you (particularly Linfar who writes quite possibly the best diaries I've read).


M. It's like W, but flipflopped.
by warmwaterpenguin on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:46:05 PM EST

Re: C40s are some of our best diarists. (2.00 / 2)

oooh, warmwaterpenguin--here's a fishy for ya. make that 2 :)


by linfar on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:48:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

woot! n/t (2.00 / 1)


M. It's like W, but flipflopped.
by warmwaterpenguin on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:21:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Glad to see you have (2.00 / 2)

matured.  Sadly, it's too little and too late.  Good luck with Obama, but he will never get my vote, much less my money or my time.  This will be the first prez election in decades that I haven't helped the prez candidate.  I will limit my support to other Democrats in other races.

I'm not in PUMA and I'm not going to vote for McCain, either, so no grief about that, if you please.  The Democratic Party has killed the one hope they had of getting the WH back, and I'm not the one who participated in that.


by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:36:34 PM EST

Re: Glad to see you have (2.00 / 3)

Well, Montague, I beg to differ. You are part of "that."


by linfar on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are wrong (2.00 / 1)

There is more than one way to make political change.  After enabling the DNC and the party for decades (and receiving two Dem presidents for my trouble, one of whom couldn't even win reelection), it is time to practice some tough love on the inside-the-Beltway Dems.  They badly need to know that they are losing rank-and-file members.  Bob Shrum, James Carville, Donna Brazile, Kerry, Kennedy, et al. will NEVER know what it is to worry about paying the mortgage or to worry about whether they will have a dignified rather than desperately poor retirement.

It is NOT only about getting a Democrat in the WH.  More importantly it is about the electorate pushing the elected officials to do what is right and to help the country.  Instead, these people (Hillary and Obama included) are safely ensconced in their cushy positions.  It's time for a humongous wake-up call.  And what better time to do it than a time when we aren't going to win the WH no matter what?  Obama is even weaker as a candidate than Kerry was, and McCain is going to prove vastly more formidable than too many blogsters give him credit for.


by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:29:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are wrong (2.00 / 3)

You are mostly alone in believing McCain will be president.  Even very few Republicans think so, outside of the surrogates who are paying their dues during the "dark times".

Do what you will out of frustration - I voted for Perot out of the belief that all politicians were fools, so everyone is allowed their time to huff off in disgust.  But the whole "betray their base" meme is, frankly, boring me to tears.  If a candidate had gotten the votes they'd be the 'presumptive nominee', and look at that - one did.

-chris

PS - gosh but it's nice to be online again!


"Because after an eight-year hiatus it is vital to have a president who leads the country instead of lassoing, roping and branding it." Shaun Appleby
by chrisblask on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are wrong (2.00 / 1)

chris, awesome to have you back!   You rock!


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:57:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are wrong (2.00 / 1)

I am not even remotely alone in that thought. Republicans are pretending to be scared. They always play this game.  Always. You must be limiting yourself to reading lefty blogs or something.

If Obama had gotten more popular votes than Hillary, that would make a difference, now wouldn't it?  But no.  What I see is a lot of buyers' remorse going on right now.

In addition, I'd rather have divided government anyway than a Democrat who will sell us down the river.  It's time for the Dems in Congress to stand up and fight.  Let them fight McCain rather than capitulate to Barack Let's-expand-faith-based-government Obama.


by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:21:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's cool (2.00 / 1)

In a few decades, when young people are saying "what did you do during the election when the first black President was elected?" you can say "I sat on my bitter ass and stewed because my candidate didn't win."


by JJE on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are wrong (2.00 / 3)

You may see a lot of buyers remorse, but the poll numbers just don't support your findings.  Also, I find it more than a tad ironic that you're attacking Obama over faith based initiatives while at the same time supporting Hillary.  You might want to read up what she has to say about the issue in an article entitled "Sen. Clinton urges use of faith-based initiatives" before you look any more foolish.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massach usetts/articles/2005/01/20/sen_clinton_u rges_use_of_faith_based_initiatives/


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:31:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just stomp your feet (2.00 / 1)

and hold your breath.  It will be just as effective and just as intelligent.


by JJE on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:26:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just stomp your feet (2.00 / 1)

True, it's not going to work.  

But even so.... No more enabling.  It's time to help third parties grow.  We need them badly, I've always felt that way, and now is the time I'll help make it happen.

As for intelligence, I've never doubted the intelligence of my friends who voted for John Anderson, Ralph Nader or even Ross Perot.  I just disagreed with what they were doing, and I told them so.  But I respected them because I knew they were liberals and libertarians who shared many beliefs with me.

Thanks so much for showing that there are still plenty of people out there willing to insult well-meaning people who believe in improving things by using a different method than you do.


by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:40:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just stomp your feet (none / 0)

Your intelligent friends helped elect George Bush. Not very smart of them was it?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:16:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again, I have used that argument (none / 0)

on them, although I didn't insult them with sarcasm while I did made the argument.  They rejected it, not surprisingly.  

But there is a big, big difference.  Al Gore had a chance of winning (and indeed, he won).  But Obama is going to lose with or without my vote.

Really, your tone doesn't help and your words don't either.  You're not bringing anyone over to your side.  And if there is one thing Obama needs, it's a few million new votes from somewhere.


by Montague on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 03:21:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again, I have used that argument (2.00 / 1)

If, as you say, Obama is going to lose anyway my words or tone don't matter. I disagree on a couple of points. One, I don't think Obama is going to lose. Two, I have found sarcasm to be an effective tool in conversation.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 10:09:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sarcasm= Effective Tool in Conversation (none / 0)

It's not.

How have you been measuring that effectiveness?

And how does sarcasm fit in with your tag line?
(Maybe in using that line you're being sarcastic).


by susie on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 04:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sarcasm= Effective Tool in Conversation (none / 0)

It may not have proven to be an effective tool for you, but that doesn't mean it can't be one. A tool is only as good as the workman (or woman) using it.

As for measuring its effectiveness, I do that the same way I do the effectiveness of any rhetorical tool; by whether or not it helps move someone to my point of view.

The tagline doesn't mean you have to be sugary-nice to everyone all of the time anymore than Obama's claim to bring a new kind of politics to Washington means he can't use any of the old style politics.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 04:56:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sarcasm= Effective Tool in Conversation (